?

Log in

No account? Create an account

How to avoid annoying the citizens of your host country - Tactical Ninja

Feb. 22nd, 2012

10:38 am - How to avoid annoying the citizens of your host country

Previous Entry Share Next Entry

Yesterday I read a blog post about the Stephen Fry internet thing that really rubbed me up the wrong way. The writer, it appears, is an expat from New York who told me later that she's been here 18 months. She was basically agreeing with Fry (and the rest of us) and spelling out how crap NZ's internet is for the benefit of her readership, which appears to be international. So far so good, international attention for this is good.


What is that thing? You know, that thing that some expats do (and most don't) where they bag on your culture as if they're telling you something you don't know.

"What shocked me though were the tweets following Fry’s rant. New Zealanders are a defensive bunch and even if everyone here hates the limits, there was no way in hell they would allow an outsider to insult their country.
One guy tweeted that, well, “maybe internet is slow here but at least it stops people from tweeting too much” (!). Another called Fry an asshole. And, of course, many brought out The Earthquake Card, saying Kiwis who have internet “should be thankful for what they have.”

"Dear NZ, You’re 10 Years Behind. Again."


"So what's the problem with that then?" I hear you ask.

Well, it's not an easy thing to put a finger on. She's right, New Zealanders are defensive when outsiders insult our country. We also tend not to like it when people come here and tell us what we're like - you know, like telling us we're defensive. It didn't help that she tarred us all with the same brush and ignored the thousands of people who were backing what Fry said in favour of quoting the ones who reinforced her point.

"But Tats, you just said kiwis are defensive!" Yes, we are. And we're allowed to say that about ourselves. But if you're an outsider talking to the rest of the world about us, you don't get to say it without pissing us off. Think of it as like a family. I can say a whole bunch of negative and insulting stuff about my family if I want, but if you have a go at my brother I'll defend him to you. Because he's family. And if you badmouth my brother on your international blog, I'll be pissed off, even if you're right. Because you are not family and you don't have that privilege.

It's a thing I've run into a couple of times lately. The other night I was at a cafe and the subject of paganism in NZ came up. There were four of us, two kiwis, my friend rivet* who is a NZ citizen originally from the US, and another expat USian who's been here four months. All of us identify as pagan to some degree. The new addition started to talk about her experience of paganism in New Zealand, what she had and hadn't felt, and her opinion of it overall. So far so good. A lot of what she said was true. But then she started talking about 'the kiwis' as a culture as if she'd got inside it and has sufficient understanding to extrapolate as to how and why kiwi culture might be influencing paganism here. That's not so bad, but the way she did it was annoying as fuck.

Essentially, she directed all of her observations to rivet - I'm guessing because she felt that as another expat, rivet was the one capable of understanding. She referred to kiwis as 'they' - even though there were two kiwis present, we were somehow 'other'. And she said such condescending things as "I find if I draw them out, they have so much to offer!" and "I think X happens because they have no experience of Y." And she made it sound as if she thought kiwi pagans as a group have no idea of how and why things happen here the way they do, as if we are not self-aware and somehow need to be told.

Now I may be reading more into this than was intended, but there are expats who can make observations on kiwi culture without pissing me off and there are those who can't. And the ones who can't have a couple of things in common - they talk about kiwis as 'them' (they other us), and they assume a lack of self-awareness which goes hand in hand with an assumption that they know better and we (and others) should listen to them. In the case of the pagan woman, she asked for opinions on her observations and I gave her mine, and she argued with me.

Is anyone thinking of a certain other wannabe-English pagan we all know who managed to piss off the entire community and couldn't understand why, then ended up blaming the community's 'immaturity' for his ostracism? He waltzed in from somewhere else and started slinging negative observations around, essentially labelling New Zealanders a bunch of ignorant provincials.

And that's exactly what the blogger up there did, and what the pagan lady in the cafe did.

We may well be a bunch of ignorant provincials, but if you're not from here and you say so, you'll piss people off. If you go into someone else's house, don't pass comment on their taste in furniture and especially don't act like you think they don't realise it doesn't match and need you to tell them. And don't write about it on your blog as if you're the authority. It's just plain rude and people tend to respond to rudeness with prickliness. It's not rocket science.


I don't think this is specifically a kiwi thing tbh, but because I live here, here is where I observe it. So I guess the bottom line is, if you make a comment about *group* and the group gets pissed off with you, maybe it's you not them. And maybe the rules of politeness work on a national scale as well as individually.

Huh. I'm glad I got that off my chest.

* rivet is one of those expats who handles this sort of thing with aplomb and afaik has never managed to piss any kiwis off in this way. Her diplomacy in that particular conversation was palpable. Unlike mine. ;-)

Comments:

(Deleted comment)
[User Picture]
From:tatjna
Date:February 21st, 2012 10:08 pm (UTC)
(Link)
Actually it's grannyish.

(sides, i brought it up first and that's how it should be)
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
(Deleted comment)
[User Picture]
From:tatjna
Date:February 21st, 2012 10:23 pm (UTC)
(Link)
That is pretty close to what I said to her when asked for my opinion. After which point she argued with me. So I'd say "A while yet."

Meanwhile, hopefully she doesn't piss off too many people.

There's an IKEA in Auckland isn't there? But then, Aucklanders are all so tasteless..
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
(Deleted comment)
[User Picture]
From:tatjna
Date:February 22nd, 2012 02:57 am (UTC)
(Link)
I think this is the point where I'm supposed to say Pommy Go Home.

But I kind of like you.
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
[User Picture]
From:t_c_da
Date:February 21st, 2012 10:44 pm (UTC)
(Link)
Now, the interesting question is how long they need to stay before that realisation goes ping.

Well, I bin 'ere thirtymumble years and I'm still figuring some of the kiwi psyche out, if that's anything to go by. And I come from .au which is a lot closer (culturally) to Kiwi than .us...
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
[User Picture]
From:helianthas
Date:February 22nd, 2012 05:52 am (UTC)
(Link)
You guys totally spell "realize" wrong.</p>


(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
[User Picture]
From:helianthas
Date:February 22nd, 2012 06:08 am (UTC)
(Link)

;-)

(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
[User Picture]
From:tatjna
Date:February 22nd, 2012 06:29 am (UTC)
(Link)
Young lady, your behaviour is colouring the tone of this illustrious centre of learning. If you check the encyclopaedia of Wikipedia, you will realise that should our dialogue be standardised, it would be the original spelling that ought to prevail, and this UR RONG so nyah.
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
[User Picture]
From:pombagira
Date:February 21st, 2012 10:39 pm (UTC)
(Link)
*coughs*.. *grins*..

yeah...

also ♥ rivet!!

*wonders off grinning*
(Reply) (Thread)
[User Picture]
From:qarl
Date:February 21st, 2012 10:53 pm (UTC)
(Link)
I'd always thought embracing provincial qualities was kind of the point of paganism.
(Reply) (Thread)
[User Picture]
From:tatjna
Date:February 21st, 2012 10:59 pm (UTC)
(Link)
Apparently only if they are the Right Kind of provincial qualities - which in that particular case seem to be the ones that are dictated by folks Not From Here.
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
[User Picture]
From:morbid_curious
Date:February 22nd, 2012 02:43 am (UTC)
(Link)
:-) Well played, sir.
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
[User Picture]
From:tieke
Date:February 21st, 2012 11:02 pm (UTC)
(Link)
England is the only country I've been to, where, as an outsider, I could say something negative about the country and, rather than jumping down my throat, the nationals would just agree with me.
(Reply) (Thread)
[User Picture]
From:tieke
Date:February 21st, 2012 11:03 pm (UTC)
(Link)
(and I should caveat that with saying that this relates to "the nationals" that I interacted with, who were not necessarily representative of the rest of the ocuntry)
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
(Deleted comment)
[User Picture]
From:t_c_da
Date:February 22nd, 2012 03:27 am (UTC)
(Link)
A quick going over with a water blaster would do wonders for the look of that place.

I suspect you've used that before (for bad concrete design iirc), but please remind me where it is...
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
(Deleted comment)
[User Picture]
From:tatjna
Date:February 22nd, 2012 03:48 am (UTC)
(Link)
It's a shopping centre? I would have guessed it was one of those Modern Institutional intermediate schools designed by a committee.

But I agree with Rich. And I'm glad it's in England. Here we have this instead:



And this:



At least the sky's blue?
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
(Deleted comment)
[User Picture]
From:tatjna
Date:February 22nd, 2012 04:14 am (UTC)
(Link)
Yes, I saw that. In NZ they just fall down by themselves.

too soon, wrong day?
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
[User Picture]
From:t_c_da
Date:February 22nd, 2012 07:29 pm (UTC)
(Link)
With a little help from the geology???
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
(Deleted comment)
[User Picture]
From:richdrich
Date:February 22nd, 2012 03:29 am (UTC)
(Link)
Look at the positive side. You could have a Huge Rave in there and nobody would mind (or even notice) how much you fucked it up.
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
(Deleted comment)
[User Picture]
From:russiandolls
Date:February 22nd, 2012 03:54 am (UTC)
(Link)
That building bears quite a resemblance to my work *cries*
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
(Deleted comment)
(Deleted comment)
(Deleted comment)
[User Picture]
From:downwardlashes
Date:February 21st, 2012 11:06 pm (UTC)
(Link)
That's like when people US bash. Yes, we do come off as a nation of stupid assholes. I'm happy to point out every stupid assholey thing the US does, but when I hear people from other countries doing it, I get really angry. Sweeping generalizations are just bad, really.
(Reply) (Thread)
[User Picture]
From:tatjna
Date:February 22nd, 2012 12:15 am (UTC)
(Link)
I understand how you feel but I have to say I think it's slightly different in that US culture* does tend to permeate pretty much everywhere else in a fairly overt way.

However, that doesn't make it ok to assume that everyone that lives there is *insert negative thing here*, or that we know everything about the US.

* At least the US culture that comes through the media and consumer good/advertising/entertainment industry.
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
[User Picture]
From:morbid_curious
Date:February 22nd, 2012 03:25 am (UTC)
(Link)
There are definitely ways and ways of talking about stuff like that, and being specific really does help. Painting that "stupid asshole" tag over the whole country is in no way constructive, especially when you're slapping the person you're talking to in the face with your paintbrush and expecting a reasonable response.

For example when it comes to talking war, I'm not criticising America and its soldiers with a broad brush. I telegraph that I'm criticising American foreign policy and operational strategy specifically. It's still a charged issue that can lead to argument, but when it does it leads to much more meaningful arguments than throwing "Americans do this" or "you Americans do that" around would.
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
[User Picture]
From:tyellas
Date:February 21st, 2012 11:23 pm (UTC)
(Link)
"We also tend not to like it when people come here and tell us what we're like...."

But Kiwis ASK. They ask all the time. Soon after they're done asking expats how long we've been here and why we moved here,* we're asked what we think of the place and the people. What are we supposed to say?

* A baffling question in and of itself and one that does not get asked of many migrants to other countries.
(Reply) (Thread)
[User Picture]
From:tieke
Date:February 21st, 2012 11:37 pm (UTC)
(Link)
You're supposed to tell us what we want to hear!
Any stock phrase from here will do:
http://www.newzealand.com/

;p
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
[User Picture]
From:vernacularity
Date:February 21st, 2012 11:42 pm (UTC)
(Link)
aw fuck there you go you you you expat... labelling us as a bunch of "they": I've never asked an expat what they think of "us" (or "me") because it's just so vain and tbh irrelevant - I tend to come from the "well if people don't like it, why did they come here?" point of view :-D

obviously it must be better than wherever they came from!

(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
[User Picture]
From:tatjna
Date:February 22nd, 2012 12:09 am (UTC)
(Link)
Well, it's kind of like the difference between when I ask you what you think of my furniture vs you venturing your opinion unsolicited to a roomful of people.
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
(Deleted comment)
[User Picture]
From:tyellas
Date:February 22nd, 2012 07:31 am (UTC)
(Link)
I do. And I wish I was like you, free from being Constantly Asked. That would be so wonderful.
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
(Deleted comment)
[User Picture]
From:vernacularity
Date:February 21st, 2012 11:45 pm (UTC)
(Link)
similarly to that expat-Brit website where they predominantly whinge and moan about such things as how expensive books are in NZ compared with the Home Country, and detail stories about how they can't get any Kiwis to listen to them bitching about how expensive books are here. As if we don't already know.
(Reply) (Thread)
[User Picture]
From:rivet
Date:February 22nd, 2012 10:56 am (UTC)
(Link)
Sadly, those expats exist all over the world, and are very tiresome.
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)
(Deleted comment)
[User Picture]
From:thesecondcircle
Date:February 22nd, 2012 06:00 am (UTC)
(Link)
On a lighter note, I kept reading your subject line as "How to avoid the annoying citizens of your host country" and thinking wow, that'd be convenient! ;)
(Reply) (Thread)
[User Picture]
From:ehintz
Date:February 22nd, 2012 01:03 pm (UTC)
(Link)
Meh. Everybody does it. USians in general tend to get defensive when you point out that our land of the free and home of the brave is neither. Might even call you a terrorist. No harm, no foul.

Pontificating as another expat wanker pretending to be a kiwi... I figure we as a nation tend to suffer a bit of small guy syndrome. Kinda like Canada. A bit sensitive about the practical reality that we are a tiny wee outpost on the edge of the Pacific, dwarfed by our bogan big brother Aussie. Doesn't really bother me personally, hell, it's one of the reasons I specifically chose to be kiwi (I'd have been applying for citizenship on 24 Nov 2006 if it weren't for the fact that I couldn't pay for it; I may be yank by birth but I'm kiwi by choice). But I totally get it. Having lived on the other side of that equation (i.e. the US/Canada relationship) I'm pretty confident in saying that kinda BS has about the same value as a screen door on a submarine. So I'm quite happy to let other countries proudly wank on about themselves. On most of the metrics important to me, we do pretty damn good. They can have their big screen tvs and a gazillion cable channels. I'll take my NZ kthxbai.

Now, just need to figure out how to not let National screw it up.

Edited at 2012-02-22 01:03 pm (UTC)
(Reply) (Thread)
[User Picture]
From:tatjna
Date:February 22nd, 2012 07:15 pm (UTC)
(Link)
I think you're right. I call it Little Country Syndrome and I've talked about it before.

I would be rapt if the content providers that allow you to pay for media (and thus not have to pirate it) would consider us big enough to be worth their while.
(Reply) (Parent) (Thread)