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Tactical Ninja - So how do you legislate against stupidity anyway?

Jan. 9th, 2007

10:38 am - So how do you legislate against stupidity anyway?

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You may have heard that they are looking at banning party pills - again. Only this time, it'll probably actually happen.


Why? Because there has been some 'new research' done that indicates that BZP could potentially do harm to one's liver and heart, if taken more than three times a week over a period of time. The research also says that a tolerance can develop to it. And it has 'unpredictable and severe side effects.' This, apparently, makes it 'dangerous' and warrants classifying it in the same category as cannabis.

As you can imagine, this announcement has created somewhat of a stir in the media. For those who don't know, New Zealand has led the world (as it does in a lot of things apparently) by allowing these pills to be manufactured and sold over the counter of most shops. In 2004, BZP became a restricted substance, basically meaning that it could only be sold legally to people 18 or over, putting it in the same category as alcohol here. At the same time, a whole lot of people started jumping up and down, going "Drugs are bad, kids, don't do 'em!" while sipping on their evening martini.

Now, thanks to this sketchy research, it's looking like BZP will be made Class C in March. Why do I say sketchy? Well. Let's have a look.

Harm to liver and heart. That's bad, right? Yes, yes it is. And I'm not refuting that BZP could potentially do this. The liver's job is to filter out poisons. BZP is a poison, where the definition of poison is something that alters your chemistry in a potentially harmful way if consumed in excessive quantities. So is caffeine (LD50 3.5 grams). And yes, it does increase heart rate. As does nicotine or caffeine. I fail to see why this is a reason to make this a restricted substance. There are so many other substances that have this effect, both medical and recreational. On its own, potential liver/heart damage is not reason enough to ban alcohol, tobacco or coffee. So, why BZP?

"If taken more than three times a week over a period of time" is an interesting one. Because anyone with any experience of this stuff knows that three times a week is pretty bloody unlikely. Under test conditions, sure. "Here, we'll pay you to be in our study. You have to take this stuff three times a week." But, voluntarily? Not likely. It's not the kind of thing that you'd take like speed, to 'increase performance' at work or study. Yeah, it speeds you up. It also makes you gurn like a mofo, turns your eyes into saucers, increases your body temperature and makes you restless as hell and slightly unfocused. Not a good look in the office, eh? And, well, after your 8 hours is up, you may be able to sleep, but you'll wake up feeling dopey and taking more won't fix it.

So it's more of a weekend thing, and once a weekend is plenty - more than that and you'll be a walking zombie who feels like shit by Monday. I'd like to know who, if anyone, actually takes this stuff more than once a week. Yes, a tolerance can develop to it. Studies showed that a few years ago. In order to develop a tolerance, one would apparently have to take it at least twice a week over a period of about three months. Then, it would start to lose its effect. Note that I say tolerance, not addiction. BZP is not an addictive substance. Not like, say, caffeine, alcohol or nicotine. All of which do damage if taken more than three times a week over a period of time, and develop tolerances, if not addictions. So I say again, why BZP?

OK, now what about these severe side effects? Well, the ones listed included loss of appetite, nausea, insomnia, jaw clenching, unsteady eyes, raised body temperature, and seizures.

Yes on the loss of appetite. Most people don't eat while on BZP. It can make some people nauseous when they take it. The day after, it's hard to eat. Not because eating makes you feel sick (like an alcohol hangover), but you just don't feel like eating. This normally rights itself in about 8 hours, or if you have a banana (tryptophan). Yes on the insomnia. Well.. the effects of the drug last 8-12 hours, and it says this on the packet. During this time you will be unlikely to sleep. After it's worn off, I've never experienced any residual insomnia. Normally I'm asleep by 10am the next morning, and will sleep for a minimum of four hours, then go to bed at my usual time the next night and, out like a light.

Yes on the jaw clenching (gurning). Sometimes on the eye jitters, usually when coming down. Yes on the raised body temperature.

However, none of these side effects are particularly dangerous to one's health. Yeah, ok, a lot would be if you were, say, diabetic. But having diabetes precludes the use of a lot of recreational drugs because of how they may affect the person. Why does this necessitate the banning of BZP?

And the last one - seizures. This is the one that's making people really scream "BAN THEM!" (yes, the One News poll, last time I checked, had 67% of people voting to ban them). However, in the cases of people presenting to the emergency room with party pill related seizures, in EVERY SINGLE CASE the person had also consumed an excessive amount of alcohol.

When you buy party pills, there is a warning on the packet. DO NOT CONSUME ALCOHOL WITH BZP. It also lists potential side effects, warns not to take if you are pregnant, lactating, have heart problems, high blood pressure or a mental illness. While driving under the influence of BZP is not illegal, the packet warnings also have the standard "Do not operate heavy machinery" warning as well.

(I don't know how many people I've spoken to about party pills who have said "They're really bad." And I've asked them if they had alcohol with them. And they had, and yes they'd seen the warning on the packet and thought "But a couple of beers would be ok, surely?" Because the societal perception is that alcohol is relatively harmless. ;-/)

So much for warnings. So much for side effects, tolerance and damage to vital organs. None of these, alone or in combination, in my opinion warrant the banning of BZP. By the way, other piperazines are on the list as well, and this includes TFMPP (Molly).

But of course, like all good hype-artists, the media understand the general fascination with drugs that most people have, and have jumped on the bandwagon in a big way. Sensationalism sells, people!

So we have the story of the kid in Kaitaia who died over New Years. Headline - "Party Pills Suspected in Death" Quote from his Mum - "He may have taken party pills and these may have caused him to have a heart attack." What she didn't mention, but the other witnesses filled in, was that he had also taken ecstasy and had been drinking alcohol all day.

Studies have been done that show BZP does not sit well with MDMA. Basically, what MDMA does is cause the brain to dump all its serotonin into the synapses at once, thus the euphoria etc. BZP (only in combination with TFMPP in a dose of around 2 BZP:1 TFMPP) causes a very similar reaction in the brain, only the BZP/TFMPP serotonin dump is selective - not all of the serotonin gets dumped. And they are two very different chemicals. In combination, the news is all bad. Add alcohol and you are almost guaranteed to have problems. And with ecstasy, you can't guarantee what else is in the pill, or what dose you're getting. Risky behaviour at the best of times. In combination with two other chemicals that are known to be badly reactive with each other? Doh. Darwin's Law in action, ain't it funky?

It also says on the packet - "Do not combine with illegal substances."

So. BZP is not the problem. There have been zero deaths that can be attributed to BZP. Unlike alcohol. Unlike tobacco. Unlike, much as it pains me to say it, MDMA (tiny tiny percentage, but yes, people have died from MDMA related dehydration). The problem is people doing stupid things with it. Like, taking 1000mg in one night (recommended dose maximum 400mg). Like, combining with alcohol. Like, taking it with MDMA (WTF? MDMA is better! Why ruin it by adding an inferior chemical that does the same thing only not as well?).

So the question becomes, how do you legislate against stupidity?

And the answer is - you can't. People will do dumb things. End of story. In the old days, people who did really dumb things died and didn't breed. That's how we became successful as a species. Now, we legislate to keep the stupid people alive.

So where am I going with this? Well, anyone who knows me well, knows I'm an advocate of responsible drug use. And I completely fail to see the difference between one mind-altering chemical and another - alchohol and MDMA? What's the difference really? Yes, I know, there are a lot of differences, but those very differences raise huge questions in my mind about why one is not only legal but culturally ingrained, and the other is Class B - which means jail, for those not living in NZ. I've already ranted about those differences a couple of months ago so I won't repeat it here. Suffice to say it defies logic, and that makes me go GRR.

So what is responsible drug use? It's knowing what you're taking. It's researching what's in it, how it's likely to affect you and the potential side effects. It's avoiding addictive substances. It's finding out the optimum way to use the chemical to get the mind altering effects with minimum risk to yourself and others. It's making sure that the use of mind altering chemicals doesn't affect your ability to function in the 'real world.' It's keeping yourself healthy between-times so that you're not brought low by an experiment to the point where it detracts from your life. It's knowing how to recognise when the signs of 'overdoing it' show up. (messing with serotonin bad, mmk? depressed tats has no fun, mmk? this is not rocket science, people).

And finally, it's being open about it. What the hell use is all this responsibility if nobody knows, if I hide it like some dirty secret? Are the uneducated attitudes to drugs (Kids, drugs are bad, don't do 'em, but here, have this beer it'll put hairs on your chest) ever going to change if the only people that ever go public about their drug use are losers, street people, and celebs in rehab? In other words, the stupid people? No wonder people are screaming to ban yet another recreational chemical.

Personally, I don't think -any- substances should be banned. Because I believe in personal responsibility. And yes, I understand that there are those out there who will abuse chemicals in whatever form they can get them in, and that they pose a risk to themselves and society. I have no answer to the people who say "But what if someone on drugs hurts an innocent bystander?" - except, hello, alcohol? Which is a cliched argument. Funny, cliches are usually cliches because they are true. That being said, I have nothing against alcohol. It's just another recreational drug. My problem is with a) people who use any drug irresponsibly and b) the effect those people have of causing the governments to legislate against stupidity by limiting our freedom of choice.

So yes, I take drugs. Some of the things I take are illegal. I understand the risk I take by admitting that. I have yet to see convincing evidence of the reasons why some things are illegal and some are not.

And go ahead, judge me if you like. But before you do, ask yourself if your judgement is moral, ethical, or knee-jerk based in cultural perceptions or lack of education. And, ask yourself - what recreational chemicals do I ingest? Alcohol? Coffee? Nicotine? And is the legality of this ingestion what makes it ok for me to do that, or is it something else?


(I have not included links. If you're interested, a Google search will bring up a lot of info.)

Comments:

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From:[info]caycos
Date:January 8th, 2007 09:56 pm (UTC)

Personal responsibility all the way...

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My only thing to add would be that surely banning party pills will make it harder to keep track of how they're being used - when they're legal you can have standards around how they're sold, who they're sold to, and how they're packaged - once it all goes underground (and it's not like they're going to disappear) it will make it much harder to know what's around and who's using it, not to mention increasing the attraction for kids who do something *because* it's banned or they were told not to...
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From:[info]caycos
Date:January 8th, 2007 09:57 pm (UTC)

Re: Personal responsibility all the way...

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That was a really long sentence.
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From:[info]tatjna
Date:January 8th, 2007 10:02 pm (UTC)

Re: Personal responsibility all the way...

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*grin*

Yes, that was a realy long sentence. Makes up for all my short little ones..

And yeah. I know a couple of the chemists who are involved in the manufacture of party pills. Their opinion is that as soon as the piperazines are banned, there are a bunch of other analogues that haven't been foreseen by the govt, just waiting to be produced. The difference is that these new analogues are stronger and less stable.

The other thing, of course, is the regulation. It's really hard to know what's in E (which most people will use if they can't get BZP/TFMPP legally) - with the party pills, the content is on the packet.

General consensus among folks I've talked to is that piperazine banning will not minimise harm, it's likely to make the recreational drug situation in NZ worse.

(harm minimisation was the reason for allowing party pills in the first place)
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From:[info]russiandolls
Date:January 8th, 2007 10:54 pm (UTC)

Re: Personal responsibility all the way...

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I agree with you. Its so easy to manufacture very similar analogues of chemicals already on the market that have similar effects on the body but are just different enough not to be caught under the umbrellla of banned substances that eventually we're just going to end up in a catch 22. [I'm sorry if this sentence makes no sense]

I think a much better approach is to educate the general public so if they do choose to use these substances they use them wisely, and educate health professionals so if people are stupid about it, the procedures are in place to deal with it. This is a much simpler process if the product is legal.
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From:[info]malach
Date:January 8th, 2007 09:59 pm (UTC)
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I'm reminded of a song, from the early 90's, from a band called Scatterbrain.

"Nineteen-eighty-four is gone, forget about Big Brother;
Welcome to the nineties, where the Government's your Mother."
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From:[info]lifeofreilly
Date:January 8th, 2007 10:16 pm (UTC)

question

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A bit of Kiwi Jargon I am unfamiliar with.

Gurn?

-J

:)
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From:[info]tatjna
Date:January 8th, 2007 10:17 pm (UTC)

answer

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Gurning is the chewing, clenching, face-pulling mouth twisting that people do when on MDMA or piperazines.

;-)
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From:[info]whatifitworks
Date:January 8th, 2007 10:45 pm (UTC)

Re: question

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actually its a British term orginally. Apparently there has been a gurning championship taking place in the Lake District (Cumbria in the NW of England) since 1267!
The winners generally have no teeth.
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From:[info]rivet
Date:January 8th, 2007 10:27 pm (UTC)

only tangentially related

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I got to have coffee with Kermit! He was in my building (apparently his work brings him here every 3 weeks or so).

I don't think I'd really noticed before that he was so pretty :)
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From:[info]tatjna
Date:January 8th, 2007 10:32 pm (UTC)

Re: only tangentially related

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He is indeed pretty. Apparently the ladies at Curve are particularly fond of him.

(his eyes go yellow in certain lights which is disturbing and attractive at the same time)

Also, I've known him since he was 18, he has definitely grown into himself, and I get all silly and proud when women lust after him. I have no idea why, he's kind of like a brother I guess.
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From:[info]ferrouswheel
Date:January 8th, 2007 10:31 pm (UTC)
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Amen sister.

Lovely discussion, and I agree 100%.

Regarding irresponsible use: I think a 3 strikes your out rule should be in place. If you are arrested (due to aggressive behaviour etc) or end up in hospital more than 3 times due to recreational drug use, then you have your rights to use such substances revoked.

Additionally, people who are on the dole would not be able to obtain such substances legally. That way, if you overdo it and lose your job or whatever, then you have to recover and they'll be incentive to NOT let it get that bad.

May I post this (either attributed or anonymously on [info]ferrouswheelie)? I know a couple of people who feel similarly and would probably be interested in reading it.
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From:[info]tatjna
Date:January 8th, 2007 10:34 pm (UTC)
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I like the three strikes idea, although I'm not sure how it would be policed...

Also, yes, by all means use it. It's public for a reason - to do with integrity and internal congruence. I don't mind if you use my lj name.

*grins at you*
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From:[info]happyinmotion
Date:January 8th, 2007 10:45 pm (UTC)
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What, any drugs? Even something as horrifically addictive as heroin? So substances remove people's ability to make informed decisions.

And there's another side to legislating against stupidity that needs to be considered - not everyone's as smart as you. Government has a duty to protect the stupid, the insane or the just plain depressed. People do do stupid things, in the full knowledge of that stupidity, hence the 23% smoking rates in NZ.

Professionals get to have legal rights based on their competance, that's why medical doctors are allowed to hack into people with knives and I'm not, even if I meant well at the time. Hence it could be useful to extend this principle to other areas, those that are more responsible are allowed more responsibility. Hmmm... Tatjna - registered certified caner?

But yes, BZP => pretty trivial, an outright ban is a silly idea, alcohol kills however many thousand a year, I've had more hassle from drunken wankers than from anyone else, agreement on all of that.
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From:[info]tatjna
Date:January 8th, 2007 10:50 pm (UTC)
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Are you suggesting some form of licensing? Hehe, "Yesyes, my iq is 149, so I'm allowed to roll..."

On the herion, the purist in me says "Let the stupid people die." But, I do understand that this is never going to happen, and that there needs to be some kind of compromise.

I just wish people didn't have such an uneducated blindly judgemental attitude to drug use based on its legality or not, and the only way I can think of to change that is to go public and accept the risk.
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From:[info]fuvenusrs
Date:January 8th, 2007 11:03 pm (UTC)
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They're taking away my fake drugs? Waaaaaaaaaah!! This means that I'm going to have to stock up like a mofo...
And I agree, it's stupidity that you need to guard against, not the Evil Fake Drugs. I've NEVER had a bad time on them, and this is because I'm sensible. I drink some (not shitloads) of water and fruit juice, I also make sure I have spirulina and soup at home so that way I'm getting some nourishment the day after, and I NEVER EVER FUCKING EVER combine it with booze. That's just plain stupid right there. Even I know that.

Bastards bastards bastards! GRRR!
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From:[info]tatjna
Date:January 8th, 2007 11:10 pm (UTC)
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Yeah, it's frustrating. On the upside, there may be a see-saw balancing effect regarding MDMA availability. But, you know, hard to predict what will happen in a black market.

http://www.savethepills.com

Register your objection.. ;-)
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From:[info]ferrouswheel
Date:January 8th, 2007 11:50 pm (UTC)
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I like that my friends are smart. It makes me happy.
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From:[info]tar_miriel
Date:January 9th, 2007 08:24 am (UTC)
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I judge you sane (and fwiw intelligent).

Unfortunately the Puritans seem to have won, on a global scale and they appoint the judges who get to pass 'legal' judgement.

I don't have much hopes that our new masters from China will do much better but then there's a long time to go 'twixt now and then.
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From:[info]tatjna
Date:January 9th, 2007 08:26 am (UTC)

You are awesome

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Just saying. *hugs*

I suspect the Chinese would be worse. ;-/

NZ's government is pretty progressive by comparison to most equivalent nations, I can't see another country's being better.
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From:[info]octopusgrrl
Date:January 9th, 2007 08:32 am (UTC)
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Funnily enough, BZP is one of the few drugs I haven't tried, mainly because it came to public attention after my main drug-taking period had waned, so in one way I don't feel qualified to comment on it. But I will anyway ;) I'd say that the main problem is not the drugs themselves, but people taking them ignorantly. The sooner it's drilled into people's heads that you don't take these things with alcohol, even "just a beer", the fewer kids will be showing up at A&E blaming the herbal highs for passing out, etc. I don't want to sound like Codger McOldiepants, but I know that when you're young it's easy to forget the consequences of taking drugs, so I'd be in favour of dispensing through pharmacies with appropriate advice as to how to take them properly (I know some of the stores purport to do this, but a lot of them don't really care as long as they make a sale.) Then, if people still drink along with the pills, they only have themselves to blame, as much as people who wipe themselves out behind the wheel of a car after drinking - there's only so much you can do :/
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From:[info]tatjna
Date:January 9th, 2007 08:38 am (UTC)
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Yeah - at some point people have to take responsibility for themselves.

I am in full agreement re the advice handed out with the pills. Cosmic Corner does this, the Quick-E-Mart where I get mine doesn't (although I've struck a rapport with the guy who works there so I could suggest it).

And yeah, teenagers are not renowned for their forward-thinking skills. To most, Responsible Drug Use means not getting yourself or your mates killed. Example, a guy on a forum I belong to took, on New Years Eve:

Ecstasy
LSD
Ketamine
Nos

All at once. And wondered why people freaked when he had a psychotic episode. That's a hallucinogenic, two dissociatives, and an empathogen, all in one go. Chemists say this won't harm you physiologically, but psychologically may just drive you insane.

To which I went WTF? Moron.
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From:[info]maholic
Date:January 9th, 2007 09:09 am (UTC)
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a/ tea was illegally imported into britain for a century or some crazy amount of time cause everyone wanted it and the government said no... end result today tea is the 2nd most consumed liquid on the planet

b/ a license to take drugs... pass psych tests and what not, and wallah

i dont see why not in this day and age that one cannot get a damn piece of paper or a card that says 'legally entitled to consume drugs at ones leisure' as they have passed the 'test for stupidity'

etc

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From:[info]tatjna
Date:January 9th, 2007 09:11 am (UTC)

I shall have to point Polly at that stuff about tea

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I concur.

I would also add, that all drugs should be lumped in together. Caffeine, nicotine and alcohol included.

Although, consuming nicotine is in and of itself, a stupid thing to do. So maybe not that. ;-)
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From:[info]edm
Date:January 9th, 2007 10:13 am (UTC)

Evil Chemicals

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Nicotine would be very unlikely to be approved now, if it were newly discovered. Alcohol a little more likely, but I think on balance it'd probably be considered too dangerous. Caffeine would probably be approved (LD50 is significantly higher than normal usage, no particular harm to society -- even "addicts" manage without their caffeine without resorting to destructive behaviour). (Indeed quite a few pharmacutical drugs that date back more than 50 years probably wouldn't be approved now, because they're "too risky".) The difference between all of these, and the latest things to be considered for banning, is that they've got a lot of legacy and a huge audience that would be upset if they were suddenly banned. One just needs to look at prohibition in the USA (of alcohol) and the rise in organised crime that resulted for how a large audience can make it "impossible" to ban something popular.

In contrast the recreational chemicals in question have a limited audience, some bad effects (especially when mixed with some things which are already legal), and no particular appeal to those who make the rules. In short they have little political capital and it's little wonder that there is a rush to ban them because of a perceived risk. (It also doesn't surprise me that there's an extreme shortsightedness of thinking that banning them will be the end of the story; those making the rules tend to be more law abiding than those affected by the ban -- if only because those making the rules tend to make rules they're happy to live with.)

FWIW, it actually seems quite reasonable to me that BZP should be treated basically like cannabis. They're both recreational chemicals, whose users tend to be fairly tame when indulging, and for which there's fairly little impact on society from their use (cf nicotine, at least through smoked tobacco; and the crime associated with cannabis doesn't count -- those "criminals" would go away if it were decriminalised). The problem here is that New Zealand has fairly strict rules about cannabis, especially for something apparently used recreationally by a significant portion of the population. The Netherlands (and Belgium) seem to have the right idea here (personal use is permitted; posession for sale, etc, is not, at least outside certain licensed organisations).

I, too, tend to take the "extreme personal responsility" approach to this and a lot of other things. To my mind providing the costs to society are covered (eg, through taxation on the sale, rules about responsible use/locations of use, etc), people should be free to do what they wish. But "extreme personal responsibility" is not a popular view with governments anywhere.

As for avoiding these drugs being banned, I have no good ideas. Arguing that it is unfair that modern drugs should have to meet standards of safety that "legacy" drugs never met (and could never meet) is unlikely to help; the obvious response is "we didn't know better then, we do now -- why add to the dangerous substances people might take". About the only thing which might help is scientifically proving that they are "safe" (to some high degree); and that's likely to take many more years than it'd take to ban them.

Ewen

PS: The "research" used to ban cannabis, at least in the USA (to the best of my recollection from reading some books about it), was equally sketchy. And there, too, at least in the USA, the major users were marginalised from society (commonly black and/or poor) without much political will. Similar things happened in other countries, and other drugs -- drugs used by marginalised groups are much more likely to be banned than drugs used by those in power. Quelle supré.
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From:[info]llearch
Date:January 9th, 2007 06:33 pm (UTC)

Re: Evil Chemicals

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The mention of "extreme personal responsibility" brings into mind a book I read a while back that had a planet in it (ok, so I like SF) that had been set up as a functional anarchy - all drugs are legal, you can do what you like, providing you don't harm anyone else, minimal laws, etc etc.

It was most interesting. I shall have to see if I can turn up the name of the book (it's in my collection at home, just not here...)

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